RR.NET Forums

[The Tears of a Madman]

This is a "spin-off" of Moonraisers Firefox thread. I felt it was needed that both sides of the browser story be told. As I said in the other thread...

Firefox isn't your only option when you decide you've had enough of the pile of crap that is Microsoft IE. Potassium first showed me Opera after I was ranting about how craptastic IE was and how over-rated Firefox was. After installing it and setting things how I like, I've never gone back.

Various test show (to lazy to link, Google it. EDIT: Links below.) that Opera has a slight advantage over Firefox speed-wise due to its smaller file size, which makes it better fitted for older hardware as well as newer. Features like the Magic Wand and the optional side bar (which I personally don't use) make Opera as, if not more, user-friendly then Firefox. Also, if you're worried about things like Viruses and pop-ups, think about this:

As Firefox grows and grows in popularity, so it will with hackers and virus/spyware creators. There are already a few little bugs out for Firefrox, but I have yet to see any for Opera dispite the fact Opera was one of the first browsers to come out to oppose IE (Aside from Netscape).

Yes, Firefox is open-sourse software and Opera is closed-source, but that really doesn't matter unless you're a coder, and no offence, but I doubt there are an abundance of coders on RR.N. Also, people tend to run when they see the word "ad supported", but fear not! These are *not* pop-up adds. These ads are about as thick as a pencil and stand above everything you use on the browser. Opera Software is a buisness, and this is how they can afford to give this browser away. Honestly, I never notice them until someone bitches about how horrible they are...I then laugh at them when I find out they have NEVER used Opera and have no idea what they're talking about.

Anyway, before you decide to make the plunge into Firefox, please consider all options.

...

Now, lets shoot down a lot of the myths that are involved with this Web Browser.

King Moonraiser wrote: Opera's Javascript support is not up to snuff. I've found errors with some basic scripting using Opera browsers. As a matter of fact, the link fader isn't working with Opera. I had to disable it for Opera users.

This is untrue. Anyone running the current Java Runtime Environment will have no problems what so ever with this kind of thing. Yes, I will admit, without Java (something thats optional the first time to d/l Opera) there can be problems, but that goes for Firefox as well.

Quote: The ads in Opera are intrusive. Firefox has zero ads. Also, Firefox and Adblock means you will get practically NO ads on ANY page you visit. You could buy Opera and get rid of the built in ads, but why should you?

I'll let everyone be the judge on how "intrusive" these ads are.
This is my screen as of about 8:30 am.

Quote: Opera is only available for the Windows platform. Users of other operating systems can't use it.

Thanks for showing us all that you didn't even check the website before posting. Opera supports Windows, Mac, Linux, Open/FreeBSD, Solaris, hell, you can even get it for OS/2 and your Mobile Phone! A quick look on http://opera.com/download/ proves this.

Quote: Firefox is extremely fast. The 1.1 version coming out will have a new rendering engine that will be even faster.

I never said Firefox was slow, But the simple fact is Opera is better on older hardware because of its smaller file size, and on new hardware everything is quick and responsive. Firefox is fast, but Opera is simply faster. Firefox, does, however, have some advantages over Opera. Check out the links on the bottom of this post.

Quote: The fact that Firefox is open source means more to you as a consumer than coders. Vulnerabilities can be found and fixed much easier since the source is available to anyone. If a vulnerability is found, you don't have to wait for "the company" to fix it. Patches to vulnerabilities are made much quicker.

Open-source is a wonderful thing. I've always been a supporter of Linux and all open-source projects. However, there is a darker side to open-source. As quick as vulnerabilities are found...well...vulnerabilities are found. Hackers will take advantage of those. Seeing as not everyone updates their browser ever time a new version comes out, I would say thats a problem. With such a large scale project as an OS (Linux), thats not too bad, but Firefox is much smaller and it is much easier to find faults in it.

Quote: Firefox has extensions. This means people can add features to Firefox without adding to the "bloat" of the product. In my guide, I chose what I felt were the ones that everyone should use. However, there are plenty more extensions that are great. For example, I use one called ForecastFox that gives my my local weather forecast automatically.

As do Opera. While they aren't termed "extensions", there are millions of add-ons for Opera. All you need to do is find them amoung the Opera community. I had quite a few installed on mine, but I recently formatted my HDD and have yet to re-add them, which is why I'm using the default skin and what-not in my screenshot.


I planned on getting alot of review links for you all to read, but I could only find a hand-full of them. The first one I find pretty shallow, and I only skimmed through the second.
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/10/1626233
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=7562

Also, a humorous review of someone who has an obvious bias towards Firefox:
http://operalover.tntluoma.com/8/review_of_cnet

This page has an obvious bias towards Opera, but it still tells you about its many features.
http://users.accesscomm.ca/gbraun/opera.htm

Whatever your choice, the most important thing is that you're happy with your browser. You shouldn't choose anything just because its whats popular and what people says is "good". Be your own judge. I say download both and see for yourself. Its the only real way to know what you want.

But whatever you do, stop using Internet Explorer. Please. D:

www.opera.com

[Agent Orange]

I've used Opera for 2 years until I switched to Firefox.

Main problem I had with Opera (despite it's excellent speed) was that the ads stand out a bit too much for me (and yes, I used them in the same way as you did) and they took a while to load if I surfed the net a lot during one day (though that could be because my old comp was low on memory).

Also, a lot of sites support Firefox better than Opera. GMail never worked well in Opera, and I needed IE to do what Opera couldn't. It works like a charm in Firefox.

Oh, and I noticed that animations run half as slow In Opera than they do in FF, which I found very annoying. Not just on my old comp, but my new one too. Noone at the Opera support site could give a decent explanation or solution for that.

I must admit, I too was sceptical about switching to Firefox for some of the reasons you mentioned: it was popular and got praising comments from nearly everyone. But I decided to try it and haven't regret it ever since.

And I agree, it's not important what browser you take, as long as it's not Internet Explorer.

[King Moonraiser]

The Tears of a Madman wrote: As Firefox grows and grows in popularity, so it will with hackers and virus/spyware creators. There are already a few little bugs out for Firefrox, but I have yet to see any for Opera dispite the fact Opera was one of the first browsers to come out to oppose IE (Aside from Netscape).

The IDN bug affected both Opera and Firefox. Ironically, it didn't work on IE. A simple Google Search will reveal others.

As Firefox becomes more popular, there will be more attempts to find exploits. The difference between Firefox and closed source alteratives is that the open source bugs will get closed faster. Firefox's track record for getting security problems resolved is second to none. The result will be a hardened browser that will be safe to use. Opera, on the other hand, may have exploits that go unpublished. If a black hat hacker finds it first, he or she isn't going to tell the world about it. They're going to use it against you.

The Tears of a Madman wrote: Yes, Firefox is open-sourse software and Opera is closed-source, but that really doesn't matter unless you're a coder, and no offence, but I doubt there are an abundance of coders on RR.N.

Has nothing to do if you are a coder. Open source benefits you the user because it's available for all to see. If there's a flaw, millions of eyes will see it. Maybe not your specific eyes, but the eyes of other coders.

The Tears of a Madman wrote: Also, people tend to run when they see the word "ad supported", but fear not! These are *not* pop-up adds. These ads are about as thick as a pencil and stand above everything you use on the browser. Opera Software is a buisness, and this is how they can afford to give this browser away. Honestly, I never notice them until someone bitches about how horrible they are...I then laugh at them when I find out they have NEVER used Opera and have no idea what they're talking about.

I have used Opera and I know what the ads look like. I'll post some screenshots later. It's a matter of opinion how obtrusive and annoying those ads are.

The Tears of a Madman wrote: King Moonraiser wrote: Opera's Javascript support is not up to snuff. I've found errors with some basic scripting using Opera browsers. As a matter of fact, the link fader isn't working with Opera. I had to disable it for Opera users.

This is untrue. Anyone running the current Java Runtime Environment will have no problems what so ever with this kind of thing. Yes, I will admit, without Java (something thats optional the first time to d/l Opera) there can be problems, but that goes for Firefox as well.

You are mixing up Java and JavaScript. They're two different things. Java for both browsers is provided by the official Sun Java plugin, so they both ought to be consistant. JavaScript is dependent on how each browser implements it. Opera has some proplems with JavaScript. I've run into it myself. I've never had a problem with JavaScript on Firefox or IE.

The Tears of a Madman wrote: Quote: The ads in Opera are intrusive. Firefox has zero ads. Also, Firefox and Adblock means you will get practically NO ads on ANY page you visit. You could buy Opera and get rid of the built in ads, but why should you?

I'll let everyone be the judge on how "intrusive" these ads are.
This is my screen as of about 8:30 am.

You should also point out that the ads are not static, they change constantly. That adds to their annoyance factor.

The Tears of a Madman wrote: Quote: Opera is only available for the Windows platform. Users of other operating systems can't use it.

Thanks for showing us all that you didn't even check the website before posting. Opera supports Windows, Mac, Linux, Open/FreeBSD, Solaris, hell, you can even get it for OS/2 and your Mobile Phone! A quick look on http://opera.com/download/ proves this.

Yep, you are correct. I didn't notice the other tabs.

The Tears of a Madman wrote: Open-source is a wonderful thing. I've always been a supporter of Linux and all open-source projects. However, there is a darker side to open-source. As quick as vulnerabilities are found...well...vulnerabilities are found. Hackers will take advantage of those. Seeing as not everyone updates their browser ever time a new version comes out, I would say thats a problem. With such a large scale project as an OS (Linux), thats not too bad, but Firefox is much smaller and it is much easier to find faults in it.

There is no evidence that open source products have more bugs "out in the wild" than close source products. The fact that Firefox is smaller than Linux is a good thing. Less things to go wrong. Less lines of code to be checked for exploits.

I agree with your closing sentiments. In fact, I'll go further. Internet Explorer (the one that's with Windows XP SP2 ONLY!) is actually a very good browser. Yes, it doesn't have a lot of features that Opera and Firefox has, but its security has improved, and I've seen a lot less machines with this version get spyware.

In all honesty, the number one reason for spyware is the user. No matter how many warnings you throw up, if the person really wants to "hit the monkey and win," or get their "1,000 funny jokes," they will click "Yes" to anything to get it. Internet Explorer has many exploits that would install stuff without any prompt whatsoever. However, no matter what browser you use, please be smart when using it.

[Herb Montes]

Just to throw in my two cents and experience with both browsers because I use them both. My PpG board Puff Works is hosted on the Aimoo message board system that uses a lot of Javascripting. And for some reason Firefox has a problem with the scripting on Aimoo which makes it difficult to edit or maintain the board. This has been brought up at the Aimoo help board since others have the same problem and the system admins are working on a fix. In the meantime I use Opera which works well with the board management software. It's probalby something unique to that system. I use Firefox for most of my websurfing but once in a while Opera helps out with problem sites.

One thing I do like about Firefox is being able to download and save enbedded graphics like Flash animations. With IE I had to use a separate program called FlashSaver. But with Firefox you can access every image embedded on a web page and save it.

[Toph Bei Dong]

seriosuly, what's wrong with Internet explorer?

[The Tears of a Madman]

King Moonrasier wrote: Has nothing to do if you are a coder. Open source benefits you the user because it's available for all to see. If there's a flaw, millions of eyes will see it. Maybe not your specific eyes, but the eyes of other coders.

Please don't talk down to me. I've studied Open-Source and Linux and yes, even Firefox. I know both sides of the story on Open-Source, both the good and the bad. It really pays to look past the fad. Also, like I said, not everyone updates their browser when a new version comes out. If, say, a huge flaw was found in the source code for version 1.3 (made up number), but was fixed in 1.5, people with 1.3 would be pretty screwed seeing as their flaw has been spread all over the internet. At least to anyone with a bit of coding skills.

Quote: You are mixing up Java and JavaScript. They're two different things. Java for both browsers is provided by the official Sun Java plugin, so they both ought to be consistant. JavaScript is dependent on how each browser implements it. Opera has some proplems with JavaScript. I've run into it myself. I've never had a problem with JavaScript on Firefox or IE.

You're right, sorry about that. Like I said, I posted that at about 9 am with no sleep in me.

Quote: You should also point out that the ads are not static, they change constantly. That adds to their annoyance factor.

I found both my CPU and my motherboard for my current computer for an extremely cheap price through Opera ads. I wouldn't really call that annoying. Also, they change to suit whatever you may be looking at, so they're not random (even though you can set them to be).


Broken wrote: seriosuly, what's wrong with Internet explorer?

Serious security flaws, lack of tabbed browsing, lack of real support, not Multi-platform (IE for Mac doesn't count. The project was dropped in 2003.), looks horrible, slow, lack of features...

[King Moonraiser]

The Tears of a Madman wrote: King Moonrasier wrote: Has nothing to do if you are a coder. Open source benefits you the user because it's available for all to see. If there's a flaw, millions of eyes will see it. Maybe not your specific eyes, but the eyes of other coders.

Please don't talk down to me. I've studied Open-Source and Linux and yes, even Firefox. I know both sides of the story on Open-Source, both the good and the bad. It really pays to look past the fad. Also, like I said, not everyone updates their browser when a new version comes out. If, say, a huge flaw was found in the source code for version 1.3 (made up number), but was fixed in 1.5, people with 1.3 would be pretty screwed seeing as their flaw has been spread all over the internet. At least to anyone with a bit of coding skills.

I'm not talking down to you. I have no idea why you think that. The fact that people don't update their browser has no bearing on their decision of which browser to use. I don't understand the relevance of your argument. People who installed Opera 7.0 and didn't patch their browser are going to be pretty screwed, too. Updating software is an unfortunate reality that neither open source nor closed source products can avoid.

[Toph Bei Dong]

I don't think it matter what the browser is if it gets you on the internet, they all take you to the same place, and people have their own preferences, I use IE and I have no problems. And it's only slow if you have an old computer

[King Moonraiser]

Herb Montes wrote: Just to throw in my two cents and experience with both browsers because I use them both. My PpG board Puff Works is hosted on the Aimoo message board system that uses a lot of Javascripting. And for some reason Firefox has a problem with the scripting on Aimoo which makes it difficult to edit or maintain the board. This has been brought up at the Aimoo help board since others have the same problem and the system admins are working on a fix. In the meantime I use Opera which works well with the board management software. It's probalby something unique to that system. I use Firefox for most of my websurfing but once in a while Opera helps out with problem sites.

Opera does a pretty good job of "emulating" a lot of IE features. Many non-standard features in IE work in Opera. I suspect that the problem is that the scripting is non-standard, so Mozilla/Firefox chokes. I had the same issue with the sliding navigation bar that I use on the website. Worked in IE, Netscape 4.7x, and Opera, but not Mozilla (Firefox didn't exist).

Opera 8.0 seems to be getting better. I was able to fix the link fader for 8.0. The fader script used some logic to work around the older Opera DOM methods. The 8.0 release seems to have been made more standards compliant. I simply changed the detection code to make Opera 8 look like a standard DOM browser like Mozilla/Firefox/Safari, etc. and the link fader now works fine.